When shooting film being converted to HD are there any makeup issues I should be aware of?
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Makeup for film being converted to HD
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 Firekitty |
Makeup for film being converted to HD |
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Posts: 24 06/29/07 11:55:53
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blushun |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #1 | ||||
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Posts: 847 06/29/07 18:53:46
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Hello Firekitty.. welcome to the boards.
 I'm pretty sure there is a thread about this in the FAQ. 
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Deanna Bell |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #2 | ||||
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Posts: 303 06/29/07 22:16:28
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Are you working on a film being shot on HD or working on a film being shot on film and presented on a HD channel? You can't really increase resolution in post.
To view HD, everything would have to be HD--the channel, the television that you are watching it on, and the DVD player you are watching it on if necessary. I don't think it is always good to just defer to the FAQ for something like HD. It isn't like it is the end all of information about HD, there are some common misconceptions posted online all of the time, and the format is changing everyday. |
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blushun |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #3 | ||||
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Posts: 847 06/30/07 00:41:50
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Quote: This may be true but seeing as this was her first post, the FAQ would be a good place to start don't you think?? 
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EmElle20 |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #4 | ||||
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Posts: 10901 06/30/07 10:52:00
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I think both are correct. Always go through FAQ first, but I do believe that this specific instance of the question is a first here, so asking here is okay. But, knowing that the OP tried FAQ first would have been preferable.
"EmElle"
www.emelle.net |
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Firekitty |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #5 | ||||
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Posts: 24 07/06/07 13:40:27
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Today, I individually went through all 20 pages of the FAQ's. I didn't find an answer to what I was looking for. What I know is we are still in development, for a pilot, and the director is insisting on shooting on film. They are then going to convert the film to HD. I just didn't know how I should adjust if any adjustments are needed. Should I apply as in HD? I'm confused. ps...sorry if my text is giant, I'm not sure how to change it.
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dana b |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #6 | ||||
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Posts: 329 07/06/07 18:14:37
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Quote: I'll bite. What's with the 
 etc sprinkled throughout your posts? www.danabretz.com
www.myspace.com/hystericalblonde |
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Firekitty |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #7 | ||||
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Posts: 24 07/06/07 20:40:53
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I have no idea why it did that. I'm on a mac, maybe that's why...I changed it from plain text to ez codes and, well, we will see if it does it again.
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noellas |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #8 | ||||
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Posts: 78 07/08/07 08:13:24
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If there is any chance of there being (screen) tests done (lighting, camera, post workflow) can you get involved? See a few different ways, how they look in the end result? Everything I've been involved with lately has been digital start to finish...
Noella |
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Firekitty |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #9 | ||||
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Posts: 24 07/08/07 20:33:56
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Yeah, we have this old school director insisting on film. So.....yeah, you know the whole pick your battles......
And, I will definitely be there for a screen test to work it all out. I"m requesting one, I'm sure he's going to give me grief but.....Well he's the one choosing this format. I just wondered if anyone had any experience with this type of thing and if they have run into any problems. If the conversion should make me apply more of an HD application. We're lighting for film.....
Thanks
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EmElle20 |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #10 | ||||
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Posts: 10901 07/08/07 20:48:23
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My initial thought is that you act as if you are doing film, because when they convert, they are converting the whole package, your work included. I don't know that you can pre-solve any issues, unless you are able to see what happens to your work during the conversion during your test. But, also, you aren't going to be able to pre-test everything, because lighting will change throughout production. You can only make an educated guess.
"EmElle"
www.emelle.net |
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Firekitty |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #11 | ||||
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Posts: 24 07/08/07 22:03:37
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I figured that I would work for film, I just don't want it to seem heavy when converted to HD. We are still early in on the project, and I have a close enough relationship with the producers that I can see if maybe I can get a little of the footage converted to see how it goes, and if there are any quirks.
If I can get the converted footage, I'll let you know the results for future reference if it's ever needed.
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Deanna Bell |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #12 | ||||
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Posts: 303 07/09/07 08:49:00
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First of all, it isn't "old school" to shoot with film. Most big Hollywood movies and big TV shows are still shot with film. You can find this information on imdb.
Okay, there is no way to increase resolution when converting from film to HD. It is impossible to create more pixels in the conversion. Therefore, it will not be an issue of the make-up looking too heavy. If you don't understand this, open a picture in PhotoShop, and make it double the size. The difference in the conversion is the amount of frames per second that are recorded in HD and film. While film records 24 frames per second, HD records 30 to 60 per second. This has nothing to do with the resolution being increased, just the amount of information you see per second. When film is converted to HD, you are still getting only the 24 frames of info, just spread out onto 60 frames. For example, if you watch "Dirty Dancing" on your new HDTV flatscreen plasma TV on a new DVD that you just bought at Target, it will look like when you watched on your parent's top of the line 1989 TV when it first came out on VHS. You don't automatically see new freckles on Patrick Swayze that you didn't see the first time you saw it. You should definitely do the make-up as you would for film, and not worry about post. Remember that film sees what the eye sees. Honestly, I think a new discussion should be opened up about HD in this forum. There are way too many misconceptions about this format, and misinformation will only hurt make-up artists that are researching online. |
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Firekitty |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #13 | ||||
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Posts: 24 07/09/07 09:09:27
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Thank you for all of your information. I appreciate those with more experience helping me with the little things that make my head spin.
I also wasn't suggesting shooting film was "old school", I was suggesting the director was, ie. "when I was a boy........"
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Deanna Bell |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #14 | ||||
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Posts: 303 07/09/07 09:19:55
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Firekitty, I knew what you meant. I was sort of making a general statement for the good of the boards.
I just want to add that you may not want to stress too much about the conversion. Asking for screen tests or worrying about doing the make-up for film or HD will communicate to the director, producers, and editors (all that understand what the conversion will entail) that you don't understand the format. Hope that helps! |
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makeupmary |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #15 | ||||
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Posts: 4927 07/09/07 10:05:48
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good answer Deanna..... You cant convert Film to HD, to see something in HD it has to be shot in HD.... wouldnt it be cool if we could watch old movies in HD?
If something is shot in HD and you are watching it on a non-HD screen you will not see it in HD....someday everything will be HD and this wont be an issue. www.themakeupartist.com |
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noellas |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #16 | ||||
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Posts: 78 07/09/07 12:40:49
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I'm not sure the analogy of opening a photo in Photoshop and making it double the size holds - this would be more like having a photo and scanning it at a higher DPI... But regardless, Super 16 is the "same" as HD 1080p once it is telecined, Super 35 the "same" as 4k.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_16#Modern_usage As for the difference in frame rate and converting it - it is explained better than I can here at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine HD does also record at 24 frames per second. Yes, you can increase the resolution in post - it isn't always good to do, but you *can* do it. I talked to an editor I know to get him to explain the old movie issue to me, he said: "When the studios reissue a film like "Dirty Dancing" on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD they go back to the master 35mm and re scan it at a higher resolution (2k or even 4k both of which are higher than HD) thus the version you watch on a new player on a new HDTV flatscreen will look sharper, clearer and cleaner then the one you watched in 1989 off of VHS. Even DVD's released 5 years ago were rescanned at a higher res. VHS is around 200 lines of res. DVD's are around 400. HD-DVD/Blu-ray/HDTV broadcast are between 720-1080." He also said: "asking for screen tests is common especially when using an unusual format or post workflow". Last comment from him re the old school thing "Film has been dying slowly for the last 10-15 years. Camera's like Sony's F900 are leading the way, but for the future of digital film, look to RED Camera - Peter Jackson did a screen test with it." The thought if you are lighting for film, with a film camera, do makeup for film works, because typically problems with makeup for HD have to do with bad digital processing in the camera. Film (analog format) softens a lot of mistakes (or doesn't exaggerate skin texture the way that HD image processing does). Noella |
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Firekitty |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #17 | ||||
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Posts: 24 07/09/07 13:58:06
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Ahhh...thank you.
This makes perfect sense. And, so wonderfully informative. I do love the new Red Camera, although I haven't gotten a chance to work with it yet, I've been drooling over it for a while. |
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Deanna Bell |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #18 | ||||
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Posts: 303 07/09/07 14:45:49
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noellas, my photo comparison was simplified. It would be like taking a small photo with low resolution, and blowing it up to a poster, or scanning a 4x6 print at a high DPI to make a poster. Does that explain it better?
I see what you are trying to say, but the bottom line is that firekitty is asking if the make-up should be done differently for the conversion. It should not be. As far as increasing the resolution during the conversion, you absolutely CANNOT add more information. If they go in and scan the frames, they are just multiplying the pixels that already exist to make it look sharper. This is like the sharpen feature in PhotoShop. You CANNOT retrieve new information. You can't go back into time and put new information that would have been there had it been shot on HD. So, semantically speaking, yes, you can increase the resolution, but it does not create new information. And obviously, asking for screen tests is great, and would be nice, but it doesn't make sense for the original question. The screen test won't change the fact that you are working with film initially. As far as shooting in film, every single SAG project shooting here in New York right now is being shot on film. Even Law and Order. I don't see that as dying just yet, but I'm sure it will in the future. |
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gnattt |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #19 | ||||
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Posts: 1 07/09/07 15:30:28
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First, about film. 35mm film as used for motion pictures etc. is quite high resolution indeed. It has to be because it's routinely projected to a very large size in cinemas across the world. The resolution of a film negative is very high indeed, and they are often scanned at the 4k resolution, which has 4096 pixels across the image horizontally, and the vertical resolution is dependent on the film aspect ratio chosen.
The highest resolution HD format video has only 1920 pixels across the image, so less than half the resolution that film is routinely scanned at, and is often much lower resolution due to many factors, not limited to that many HD recorders use the lower 1440 horizontal resolution. So, Film is generally considered to have much superior resolution to HD. When you scan film at a resolution, you're scanning an analogue optical image, and hence as long as there as is sufficient information in the film itself, that resolution you scan it at is real. So no, they're not guessing pixels, they are getting REAL information. Next, back to the original topic: If you're doing makeup for film to be trasferred to HD, then you should do the makeup as if you were doing it for film to be watched as film. You do need to do makeup different from HD, but the reason is not what you'd think. People think of HD as high resolution and showing up details and defects. This is not so. HD is actually much lower resolution than film, and as part of the image processing chain for HD it is routinely sharpened to make up for it's "low" resolution. This sharpening is artificial and will pick up details and exaggerate them and make things look bad. If HD had high enough resolution, it wouldn't need to be sharpened and skin and makeup would look fine, just as it does on film. I'm working on the above mentioned RED camera, which is a digital 4k camera, so much, much higher resolution than HD. And it's real resolution as our image sensor has much higher resolution, and it's larger so it takes standard film lenses. I'm pleased you're excited about it. It's very revolutionary. "For example, if you watch "Dirty Dancing" on your new HDTV flatscreen plasma TV on a new DVD that you just bought at Target, it will look like when you watched on your parent's top of the line 1989 TV when it first came out on VHS. You don't automatically see new freckles on Patrick Swayze that you didn't see the first time you saw it." This is not so. A new scan of the negative or even the print will be done to much higher standards and resolution and yes, if you view the HD made from this new scan, you'll see new details and wrinkles if your HD display is up to it. If you have any questions about video technology I'm happy to answer them. |
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lizyu |
Re: Makeup for film being converted to HD | #20 | ||||
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Posts: 1097 07/09/07 16:59:32
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this is such an informative thread!.. can we add this to faq please?
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